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COLLEGE OF HERALDS - commentary archive
Letter of Intent #92 Elsbeth Anne Roth
Greetings from Elsbeth Anne Roth, Clarion and Jewel Herald:
Some comments on the latest letter. I did take the opportunity to
re-conflict check against the newest version of the database (which
came out yesterday).
I mostly did not comment on something when someone else did so.
1. Clarice Roan: Per fess azure and argent, a dove rising argent
sustaining in its claws a serpent embowed counter-embowed
gules.
Name: Heronter writes:
>The documentation is not only solid, but overkill. We suggest
that
>Pelican really only needs the Withycombe and Reaney and Wilson
>citations.
To be more particular about the other documentation (as knowing what
is good, bad, or okay is non trivial):
The Dauzat citation would have been okay if the Withycombe citation
were not missing, but it is not as good as the Withycombe citation as
it does not cite the actual use of the feminine name (something Dauzat
almost never does).
The Black citation is very useful in the internal letter but less
useful externally as it only documents that the name was not found to
period in the desired form.
The documentation of <Roana> should not be included; it documents
a
different name used in a different manner.
The citation of <Roan> in the problem names letter actually cites
the Reaney and Wilson data so it not really needed in the external
letter.
Device: Aryanwy writes:
>The posture of the dove's wings should be blazoned. I found
no
>conflicts.
In particular, the wings should be blazoned as "rising, wings
displayed" which is usually a C.D. from "rising, wings addorsed" (the
default for "rising").
Alheydis writes:
>If we blazoned the charge group as counter-changed, and adjusted
the
>tincturing of the charges at the line of division accordingly,
would
>this be acceptable?
Probably. This still does not resemble pictures I have seen of birds
holding snakes, but it should be okay as counter-changed and
*possibly* okay as is.
Heronter:
>We think the birdie is more like a hawk than a dove (Why would a
dove
>want a snake?) but we found no conflicts under hawk. We
suggest
>reblazoning it as a hawk.
It has the tuft of the heraldic dove (as Margaret noted) -- I see no
reason to reblazon it. The difference between birds can be subtle in
any case.
2. Fredeburg von Katzenellenbogen: Vert, two bars gemels and in chief
a lion passant argent
Name: When documenting a given name from a surname book, it is
especially important to note that it is specified as a given name. In
this case Bahlow states that it is a metronymic (i.e. the name of
someone's mother) and notes that "especially in LGer. region was a
popular (noble) fem. f.n. in the Middle Ages". It then notes a
"Cristian filius Herburgis" in Hamburg in 1300, and lists this form as
part of a set of names that are "in the same area".
3. Katerin Douglas Als' Alexander: Per chevron raguly sable and gules,
a phoenix and in chief three flames Or.
I have to admit that I have less trouble with the flame partially
because I know how strange flames can get (see
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~kvs/heraldry/flame.gif
for an example from
Italian heraldry). Changing it, however, will mean that there will be
less discussion at the Laurel level. I also do not know (although
Roana might) if this is indeed a period style of flame.
Alheydis writes:
>If there were only two much larger flames in chief, would they and
>pheonix be balanced enough to be a charge group? If we return the
>device, I would like to give the submitter suggestions for
alternate
>designs.
I don't think this is returnable as is. The blazon may need to be
adjusted to in base and in chief and the flames *may*
need redrawing
(which probably can be done in house) but that is it.
5. Sabina de Lyons, House Laughing Fox, A fox's head erased contourney
gules.
Alheydis writes:
>This is one of those cases where the submitter has indicated a
>preferred time period, but has not requested authenticity to it.
I'm
>not entirely sure what the College, at the kingdom level should be
>doing in those cases. Thoughts?
I agree with what Ailis says, with a further note that such
preferences are used at the Laurel level to guide changes when they
are necessary for registration.
The device conflicts with Kathleen MacChluarain, "Per chevron
embattled azure and vert, a lion sejant Or langued gules orbed sable."
There is one CD for the field, but nothing for the difference between
a lion and a cat.